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paternoster_start [2021/07/09 00:40] – [Situations and Counters] adminaccountpaternoster_start [Unknown date] (current) – external edit (Unknown date) 127.0.0.1
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 +====== Paternoster / Patenostrier ======
 +
 +Original text for French readers (BnF):
 +  * [[http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55064206|Traite ou Instruction pour Tirer des Armes]] bundled with //Le Guidon de Capitaines//, a description of army camp management in verse, and a guide to hunting.
 +
 +There's a free PDF translation available on the [[https://longedgepress.com/pdfs/cavalcabo-patenoster-1595.pdf|LongEdge Press]] website.
 +
 +Also, there is an English translation by Rob Runacres (Lulu.com):
 +  * [[http://www.lulu.com/shop/rob-runacres/treatise-or-instruction-for-fencing-by-hieronymus-calvacabo-of-bologna-and-patenostrier-of-rome/paperback/product-22198625.html|Paperback]]
 +  * [[http://www.lulu.com/au/en/shop/rob-runacres/treatise-or-instruction-for-fencing-by-hieronymus-calvacabo-of-bologna-and-patenostrier-of-rome/ebook/product-22013739.html|eBook]]
 +
 +-----
 +
 +These notes assume a right-handed fencer. Reverse the direction for a left-hander.
 +
 +> "Fencing consists of four things: the movement of the arm and of the hand, the advancement of the feet, the evasion with the body; and the judgment of these four concerning any event and blows."
 +
 +
 +===== Stance =====
 +
 +The weight is on the left leg such that the head and left flank rest over the left leg. The left leg is bent. The right leg is mostly straight. The heels are in line. The left hand is held near the face like a half-circle [//comme vn demy circle//]. The right arm is extended downward a little before the right knee. The point of the sword is inclined slightly inwards and points toward the opponent's right shoulder.
 +
 +Patenostrier acknowledges the four Agrippan guards but categorises them into two broader groups without giving his reasons for this.
 +
 +  * //Prime// and //seconde// are one group
 +  * //Tierce// and //quarte// are the second group
 +
 +
 +===== Strikes =====
 +
 +Patenostrier specifically excludes cutting strikes from the discussion. Again he does not explain why -- although he does say that the thrust is the best and "most principal" part of the sword alone.
 +
 +There are five principal thrusts. The descriptions below include at times snippets of the original text where there are differences of opinion in translation.
 +
 +Note that [[cavalcabo_start#Strikes|Cavalcabo]] does not include the Quarte Over the Sword as a basic strike.
 +
 +==== Quarte or Inquartade ====
 +
 +> "The quarte is made advancing first the hand like a straight line [//comme le droit fil//], and then turning it to the inside near to arriving [//proche d'arriver//], well advancing [//avançant fort//] the right foot, turning the right shoulder forward and the left back to better evade, carrying the arm well extended in such a manner that your hand is as high as your shoulder, stretching to the right shoulder of the enemy."
 +
 +The quarte can be made advancing either the right or the left foot. Quarte is used when the opponent is uncovered on his or her inside line.
 +
 +==== Tierce ====
 +
 +> "Tierce is made by advancing first the hand and the right foot, turning the fist to the outside, the arm well extended forward so that it arrives with the right foot carrying the body’s flank, the right shoulder always forward, and the left behind, so there is less of a target [//moins de prise//], which will be covered both inside and outside, be it that the enemy cavers [//esfalse//] or comes in //contretemps//."
 +
 +==== Passing Below ====
 +
 +> "The pass below is made with a tierce. There are no other special observations other than lowering the body to the outside, and to angle the tip of your sword a little to the inside, and can be made on either side and either foot."
 +
 +:!: My interpretation is that the Pass Below is made with the left foot when pushing forward and by withdrawing the right foot when dealing with an opponent coming forward "with great resolution".
 +
 +==== Beat and Enter ====
 +
 +> "The beat and entry is also made in tierce, and there is nothing more as you beat the enemy's sword. And care must be taken with the left hand while beating to not withdraw the right arm."
 +
 +==== Quarte over the Sword ====
 +
 +> "The quarte over the sword is made like the ordinary //quarte//, except that one is done to the inside of the sword, the other is to the outside of it. The manner to execute it: on the long guards or on a //tierce// a little advanced, broadening [Cotgrave: dilating, inlarging, widening, increasing. DMF: opening, extending, increasing, deploying] the hand to the outside and inclining the point to the inside."
 +
 +:!: This looks suspiciously like a thrust into a modern //sixte// position.
 +
 +
 +===== Counters =====
 +
 +Counter-time responses are the prefer means of defending. See **Tempo** below.
 +
 +If a counter-time response cannot be made, these are the static parries.
 +
 +  * A parry to the inside line looks like a preparation for a quarte. This may be made on the firm foot or stepping to the left (with the left foot) in order to avoid any attempt at a grab by the opponent.
 +  * A parry to the outside line looks like a preparation for a tierce. This may be made on the firm foot or stepping to the left (with the left foot) in order to avoid any attempt at a grab by the opponent.
 +  * An attack to the inside line may be parried with the sword hand in tierce, using this motion to prepare a //revers// (//renvers//, //riversa//) to the opponent's head. The left hand is use to push [//chassant//] the opponent's sword out of the way. :!: I'm unsure whether this parry is made sword point upwards or downwards. Either would appear to work and Paternostrier provides no further clues.
 +  * Cutting the sword (Is this a //garatusa//?) parries the opponent by turning the hand from quarte into tierce over the opponent's blade, pushing it out of the way to your outside line.
 +
 +
 +===== Tempo and Measure =====
 +
 +Patenostrier's comments on tempo are necessarily brief and he reserves the right to expand on them at a later time  (which we do not have). Tempo for him is a point in time in which the opponent presents an opportunity for you to counter the opponent's action. Not every action provides you a tempo in which to act.
 +
 +Paternoster specifically calls out the "tempo of the foot" in this way and is relatively silent on any other use of tempo in this manner. 
 +
 +> "Take the tempo when meeting the enemy on his step when he wants to gain the measure."
 +
 +That is, your best opportunity to strike is when the opponent is moving their feet to close distance.
 +
 +He also speaks of tempo as the timing of actions.
 +
 +> "An assault made by two who want to strike with resolution, accompanied however with judgement, being in reasonable measure can run for only three //tempi//."
 +
 +I'm unsure whether these "three //tempi//" represent three discreet actions or his later use of the term which appears to define three epitomes of fencing exchange:
 +
 +  * **//Contretemps//** or **Counter-time**: This is when you see or anticipate the opponent's action and respond with a superior and -- more importantly -- quicker action which interrupts it and wounds. This occurs when the opponent attacks.
 +  * **Attack and Caver**: This is when the opponent strikes and you caver in order to oppose the attack and strike the opponent. :?: Does this refer to double time (parry => riposte) counters?
 +  * **Feint, Caver and Counter-caver**: This is when the opponent feints and cavers to deal with your response before taking advantage of this to make the true strike, forcing you to caver again to protect yourself. Does this count as a triple time response (parry => parry => riposte)?
 +
 +All these uses of the work //tempo// demonstrate the same confusion evident in Agrippa's text and cannot be as clearly understood as the explanation in [[cavalcabo_start#measure_and_tempo|Cavalcabo's text]].
 +
 +There are three measures – unlike [[cavalcabo_start#measure_and_tempo|Cavalcabo]] who only lists two.
 +
 +  * **Just (or Correct) Measure**: “Each may arrive at the other with a step”
 +  * **Narrow Measure**: “Each may reach other by extending the arm or with an unforced half-step”
 +  * **Wide Measure**: One cannot reach the other easily with just a single step and, to perfect it, one uses a half-step first followed by another, forced step"
 +
 +^Measure ^Definition                                                                        ^
 +|Just           |Each can reach the other with a step. “Juste” also means “correct” or “rational”. |
 +|Narrow         |Each can reach the other with an extension of the arm or a small, corrective step.|
 +|Wide           |Can not reach the opponent with just a single step. Multiple steps are required.  |
 +
 +
 +===== Stepping =====
 +
 +There are four kinds and each kind is keyed to one or more measure. Often one type of stepping is not sufficient to gain the measure and two or three steps may be needed. Patenostrier makes the point never to do the same type twice in a row; mix them up.
 +
 +Patenostrier’s stepping is very different to that described by Cavalcabo, whose stepping is much more reminiscence of Agrippa.
 +
 +  * **Advancing**: In narrow or just measure, advancing the right foot to gain measure in order to redouble again with the right foot or to go with the left.
 +  * **Approaching**: In wide measure, you bring the left foot halfway to the right and then step out with the right foot.
 +  * **Joining**: In Just or narrow measure, you join the left foot to the right in order to then advance the right foot. This is mechanically the same as approaching with the key difference being the measure.
 +  * **Pursuing**: “Chasing the foot is when, being at wide step (measure?), you bring near the left foot and chase the right further in front than it was.” :!: Again, I cant see the difference between approaching and joining. There is an older sense of //aprochez// [bring near] which connotes approaching a fortification under cover – although this may be overthinking things.
 +
 +^Stepping ^Measure ^Description                                                        |
 +|Advancing |Just, Narrow   |Right foot first (then left?) then right again                     |
 +|Joining |Just, Narrow   |Bring the left foot up to the right in order to step out with the right foot |
 +|Approaching |Wide         |Gather left foot half-way then step out with the right foot        |
 +|Pursuing |Wide         |Bring the left foot near the right and chase the right foot further forward. Is there an idea of stealth in moving the left foot? |
 +
 +
 +===== Grabs and Holds =====
 +
 +Paternostrier dismisses grabs and holds to the neck and body as being more appropriate to wrestling and not part of fencing.
 +
 +> When it is with grasps, the best are those which are on the right hand of the enemy, or those that take the sword wrapped between your arm and your left flank. But before going to the grasp on the quarte , on the tierce , or the pass below, you can make an //estramaçon// of a //main droite//, or with a revers high or low on your enemy, and on the release of the //estramaçon// you must withdraw your arm well back, or rather the sword, and you must go to grasp as I have said in this article.
 +
 +**Note**: the terms //estramaçon// may refer to either the equivalent of an Italian //stramazzone// or //molinetto//, or simply refer to a cutting strike as opposed to a thrust.
 +
 +
 +===== Situations and Counters =====
 +
 +Paternoster does not list plays as such. The closest he comes to this is a list of counters to different situations. I was in two minds whether to pull this information into its own section here or include it in the section on tactical advice.
 +
 +In attack, in short, one strikes to the nearest opening. For example, if the opponent is open on your inside line, strike in //quarte//. Conversely, if the opponent in open on your outside line, strike in //tierce//.
 +
 +^Against ...                     ^Possible Counters    |
 +|... attacks to the inside line  | Parry "as if wanting to make a //quarte//"  Simple parry-riposte. |
 +|:::                             | Parry with the hand and strike in //tierce// or with an //estramaçon// of //revers//.  |
 +|:::                             | Parry "starting with a //quarte// and finishing by turning the hand into //tierce//. An envelopment? |
 +|... attacks to the outside line | Parry in //tierce//, "sometimes without moving the foot, sometimes advancing the foot".\\ The parry with advancing the foot is better when seeking to grab the opponent.  |
 +
 +Paternoster differs from Cavalcabo in that he advocates for parrying directly with the off-hand in some circumstances.
 +
 +==== Three Situations? ====
 +
 +There's a section of text under the heading **Of the Counter Blows** which seems to outline three broad patterns of attack/defence or of general situations one encountered when fencing (below). The question is are these two sources hitting on the same underlying idea or is it merely an accident of comparison?
 +
 +  - "When your enemy is coming and you are going"
 +  - "When your enemy comes and you //caver//"
 +  - "When your enemy feints and //cavers// and you counter-//caver//"
 +
 +These do not quite makes sense as they stand. However, it is use to compare them to similar phraseology in Capo Ferro's __Grand Simulacrum__. Perhaps some meaning can be generated from this. A similar expression in exactly these terms is found in Alfieri’s text __La Scherma__.
 +
 +> There are three ways of seeking measure: I seek it either while I move and he adversary fixes himself, or when I fix myself and the adversary moves, or when I move and the adversary moves.
 +--- Capo Ferro, Chapter XI: On the Ways of Seeking Measure
 +
 +===== Tactical Advice =====
 +
 +Because of the extreme brevity of Paternoster's text, there is no section of text dedicated to strategy and tactics although much may be inferred from the brief snippets he drops. Here are some of the more interesting tidbits. There is not sufficient information in the text to know whether Paternoster agrees or disagrees with Cavalcabo's tactical advice.
 +
 +  * "I disapprove of the practice of foot stamping and sliding with the foot as a doltish thing, indecent and inconvenient." So, no //appels// according to Paternoster.
 +  * "One must be careful ... not to strike if you find your sword under that of the enemy." I suggest this means if your blade has been subjected by opponent's.
 +  * He advises against use of counter-time attacks, except perhaps against beginners "who for the most part do not know what they must do." Double-time (or parry/riposte) actions are safer and have a better chance of success.
 +  * An "assault" between two skilled and resolute fencers will not last more than three tempi. After this, it is no longer fencing but a confused mess. :!: I suggest this means any particular exchange rather than the whole fight.
  

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